| Round
Table Day 2: The Challenge for Energy Agencies: state of play and prospects |
| Interactive
Chat Panel | David
Hammerstein, Member of the European Parliament (MEP) [joining
direct from Istanbul] | Claude
Turmes, Member of the European Parliament (MEP) [joining direct
from Istanbul] | Randall
Bowie, Unit for Regulatory Policy & Promotion
of New Energies and Demand Management, Directorate-General for Energy and Transport,
European Commission | | William
Gillett, Deputy Head of Unit for Management of RTD energy programmes, Directorate-General
for Energy and Transport, European Commission |
Karl Kellner, Head of Unit for Management
of RTD energy programmes, Directorate-General for Energy and Transport, European
Commission | | ManagEnergy
Team |
|
| Claude
Turmes | Hello from Claude Turmes and David Hammerstein from
Istanbul. |
| Internet Broadcast Help Desk | Hi,
welcome! |
| David Hammerstein | Hello. |
| William
Gillett | Welcome |
| ManagEnergy | Welcome
to all. |
| David Hammerstein | In
a highly air-conditioned room in Istanbul. |
| ManagEnergy | So
not very energy-efficient!? |
| David Hammerstein | Not
at all. No windows can be opened. |
| William
Gillett | I understand that our Istanbul based friends can now
hear us. It seems that the parallel sessions this morning have led to some good
sharing of ideas. [Editor: A telephone link was set up to Istanbul to enable the
ManagEnergy Team to assist the MEPs with any technical issues] |
| ManagEnergy | I
attended a very interesting conference in Pamplona recently (CIBARQ 04) about
energy design in buildings and cities - with a lot of information about passive
heating and cooling - air conditioning - so hopefully things are improving. This
meeting was organised by CENER and around 370 Spanish Architects attended. |
| William
Gillett | It seems we may have a technology problem with the
connection in Istambul. Our experts are on the case! |
| Irene,
UNYSA | United Nations Youth and Student Association of Austria |
| Hello,
I am Irene from the United Nations Youth and Student Association of Austria. |
| ManagEnergy2
| Hello Irene - currently we are hearing the summaries of the
parallel sessions before lunch - on buildings, education, and local energy agencies
in the new Member States - of course within the overall context and main axes
of the conference. Now we have the round table in the room with the parallel internet
round table on line, in which you are very welcome to participate. |
| Randall
Bowie | For those of you who are following the round table,
I would just like to say that among the distinguished guests, we have MEP Anders
Wijkman, who has considerable experience working on the local level fro the UN
among other things. |
| ManagEnergy | Hello
Mr Turmes - we are glad you are able to join us for the third year in a row and
also hello to Mr Hammerstein joining us for the first time. |
| Internet
Broadcast Help Desk | Claude Turmes MEP, we greatly appreciated
your active support in our fields for the last four years, and now over such a
distance, but still seamlessly, or almost. We are trying to stimulate the chat
on line in order to encourage people at local level especially to address elected
representative directly in order to present their main preoccupations in the vital
context of sustainability. |
| Claude Turmes | Thank
you very much for your encouraging words, you can help our cause by lobbying at
your local place for the important directives like minimum standards eco-design
and the energy services directives, my mail for any questions is cturmes@europarl.eu.int
|
| David Hammerstein | Yes,
we need to get beyond the generally vague local agenda 21 objectives and integrate
concrete energy objectives in areas of public procurement, transport and local
building standards. |
| William Gillett | We
are also finding very high interest from those local communities with which we
are negotiating CONCERTO projects. |
| Diana
Barbu | Would it be possible to get Mr. Vijkman email address?
In Oldenburg University we are also designing programs to work with local businesses
in designing business strategies so I would be interested how the work is organised
in Sweden. |
| ManagEnergy2 | Anders
Wijkman's e-mail is awijkman@europarl.eu.int - all MEPs - initial of first
name+familyname@europarl.eu.int |
| Irene,
UNYSA | The whole problem though in Austria at the moment is
that the government in Austria is cutting spending on eco-energy dramatically
from 125 million EURO to 17 million EURO and is targeting especially to cut on
wind power plants. This is very sad when considering that Austria lacking behind
on its Kyoto Protocol targets. So it is very difficult to talk about local energy
initiatives when governments are cutting finances in general starting in the first
place. |
| Randall Bowie | Denmark
had the same problem. When the new government was finally convinced of the many
commercial, export and environmental advantages of continuing to support its wind
power industry, it re-instated a number of its support programes. Generally speaking,
private industry can also be activated when the technology is approaching profitability. |
| Karl
Kellner | Regarding the situation in Austria, the new government
decision ( subject to Parliament approval) foresees that in addition to the budget
in 2004 ( 104 M€) 17 M€ annually will be provided for support of renewables
until 2010, which will result in a doubling of the total support by 2010. |
| David
Hammerstein | One of the main problems in Spain is the lack
of the mainstreaming of energy sustainability in urban planning question within
the context of a tremendous building boom on the Mediterranean coast. |
| Internet
Broadcast Help Desk | Is there a big difference between the
planning of coastal building in Spain versus the planning in other Mediterranean
countries? |
| David Hammerstein | The
problems entailed in large tourist oriented building on the Med coast are similiar
in other countries/ Little or no use of renewables/ Most of the homes are empty
most of the year and are very energy intensive and resource intensive in general.
Little local citizen participation and sustainable criteria go into these massive
developments. |
| ManagEnergy | A
big problem in the UK is approval for wind - usually on environmental grounds
- even though most of the environmental lobby groups (such as Friends of the Earth)
support the turbines. |
| William Gillett | The
feedback from our wind demonstration projects suggests that local communities
which have wind farms and have been involved in the developments (with financial
cash back to the community) are quite happy to have them. |
| David
Hammerstein | More attention and research should be given to
offshore wind parks to lessen opposition. |
| William
Gillett | Our Communication COM 366 of May 2004 commits the
Commission to further develop our policy for off-shore wind. |
| Claude
Turmes | UK would also need a more stable investment climate,
in-feed laws in Germany, Denmark and Spain have been at the very ground of the
success, second was taking on board the local communities. |
| David
Hammerstein | This is true. Participation in all stages is the
key. |
| William Gillett | Local
energy agencies can have a key role in ensuring that the communities get their
fair share of the benefits from wind power developments. |
| ManagEnergy | It
is often not the community that does not want them, but there are other pressures
from people with vested interests for them not to be approved. |
| David
Hammerstein | What kind of vested interests. |
| ManagEnergy | Other
sources of energy, other uses for the land, ... |
| Claude
Turmes | When 8 energy companies are controlling 80% of all
electricity production than you can imagine that these companies have vested interests
to keep new entrance out, therefore we need a stricter competition policy tackling
market dominance. |
| Randall Bowie | Returning
to the point made by Claude Turmes on the lack of competition on the electricity
market, I read recently that it has become even more concentrated as three companies
now own almost 90% of production capacity. |
| Claude
Turmes | 3 companies control 42% it is EDF, Eon, RWE they are
taping in their decommissioning funds of their existing nuclear power plants to
buy up other companies, the same companies are also very active in Eastern Europe. |
| Randall
Bowie | Claude, the 90% figure was in a Commission report yesterday.
I will check it and if it is correctly quoted, send the details. |
| David
Hammerstein | Local authorities should be encouraged to form
renewable companies to ensure stakeholder participation in face of just a few
large firms controlling wind farms. |
| ManagEnergy | There
is a similar problem for bio fuels, where any tax incentives, etc are objected
to by big fuel companies on the basis of "anti-competitively". |
| ManagEnergy2 | There
seems to be no field in which misapprehensions have played a bigger role in allowing
opposition based on unfamiliarity to build in local communities *until* of course
as Bill [William Gillett] said, they actually get turbines and preferably the
income from them: unless the info is very effective and promptly given, people
go on thinking that there is noise, unacceptable loss of birds etc etc. mostly
unfounded. The visual issue is of course something. |
| William
Gillett | Do you think that a small local company dedicated
to mainly one project would be sustainable? |
| Diana
Barbu | I tried to follow the discussion on internet on the
wind power. I believe it is equally important to look at what happens in other
stages of the process. For instance, in Portugal I read an article about the application
procedure to build wind farms. The grid connection permits (which originally cost
3000E-4000E/MW are being resold for 100000E/MW. This is becoming a better business
than building the wind mills. |
| ManagEnergy | Some
questions are being asked which came from the Round Table this morning. I will
repeat them here, so you can read them in the chat, and respond. [you can hear
the answers from the pannel in Brussels by viewing the Internet
Broadcast] |
| Question
1 from Dana Dutianu: Which measures could be envisaged to improve the visibility
of the Local Agencies to the national level? Up to my opinion, the visibility
of the Local Agencies is a "key point". It is very important to promote
& disseminate the "local" actions, results and best practices to
the national level. Moreover, these "islands" should be strongly connected
to other projects/initiatives developed at national or regional level... Particularly
in New Member States and Candidate Countries. |
| Question
2 from Diana Barbu: Motivation of local actors is essential. Do the speakers think
that municipalities should be independently evaluated on their value for money
related to energy performance. A good credit rating for "commercial"
loans (e.g. from EBRD, EIB, Environmental Partnership Fund, etc) will require
socially responsible behaviour and therefore municipalities may want to get "greener"
to get a better credit rating and therefore more access to grants and cheaper
loans. As we are moving towards market mechanisms, this would encourage municipalities
to take a more business-like approach. |
| David
Hammerstein | Yes, there should be evaluations for credit rating
and other financial aid. |
| ManagEnergy | Question
3 from ISLEnet: Small and isolated communities and in particular islands have
a harder time mobilising in the context of FP6. I would like to know if there
will be any initiatives focusing on island energy needs and specificities. I represent
a network of local authorities and local energy agencies in islands in Europe.
The answer should not only focus on funding on research but also accompanying
measures, such as funding for establishing local policies, involving local actors,
networking, meetings, raising of awareness. I would like to know if the Commission
is thinking of having actions to help create in islands a culture of energy savings,
renewables and in general sustainable communities. In a competitive environment
small and isolated communities and in particular islands have a harder time mobilising
in the context of FP6. I would like to know if there will be any initiatives focusing
on island energy needs and specificities. I represent a network of local authorities
and local energy agencies in islands in Europe. |
| William
Gillett | FP6 demo' projects are of course open to islands,
including the CONCERTO II call expected next June for Dec 2005 deadline. |
| IEE
call to be launched before Christmas will also open Sustainable Energy Communities
Key Action [Editor: see the presentations from the Information
Day] |
| David Hammerstein | Islands
such as the Canary and the Balearic face very difficult energy problems in a finite
territory and intense tourist influx. Specific FP7 studies should address this
issue. |
| ManagEnergy | This
morning Degenhard Peisker from the German NCP (National Contact Point) asked re:
IEE - Will IEEA take the evaluation procedure of the next call? |
| William
Gillett | As Mr Lambert announced this morning, our expectation
is the Agency should be more or less fully operational early next year. [View
the Internet Broadcast to see Mr Lambert's presentation] |
| Diana
Barbu | Another issue is the consumer awareness. It is my understanding
that in the UK, despite the wealth of policies, utilities can go bust because
there is no real demand from the consumer side for green energy. |
| <BE_Vaessen>
| You think that accounts to awareness only? |
| ManagEnergy | I
think the way it is sold is confusing - how can you buy green electricity when
all electricity becomes centralised and hence the extra money does not immediately
effect on how much green electricity is being generated. I think people are either
cynical or uninterested in the UK - we are not convinced by "hype". |
| <BE_Vaessen>
| I agree, just too bad the energy does not show it is green
itself :-) |
| Diana Barbu | I
guess the problem is rather in the fact at the moment consumers are concerned
with security of supply and quality of services so unless we are able to show
clearly what benefits green electricity has, consumers will not react so easily. |
| ManagEnergy | Education
of the next generation is important in parallel with good design of new buildings,
urban planning, support for home working and creation of "village" communities
even in big cities. |
| Diana Barbu | I
think what was anticipated was low costs for the end consumer, which indeed did
not really happen, especially for the households. |
| ManagEnergy | You
are always fighting against market forces and commercial pressures for profit. |
| Diana
Barbu | Well, utilities became global players and they depend
on capital markets. |
| Claude Turmes | Mr
Wijkman is right, we need a more ambitious target in the energy services Directive,
the problem will be to win his colleagues from the conservative EP group. [View
the Internet Broadcast to hear Mr Wijkman's comments] |
| William
Gillett | I agree with Mr Wijkman - I don't like big 4 wheel
drive cars! |
| <NL_Peter> | He
has valid arguments, I have to agree :-) |
| Diana
Barbu | I do not drive at all. |
| <NL_Maas>
| In some cases you might have to. But I prefer public transport
too. |
| ManagEnergy | Perhaps
the answer is more encouragement for people to work from home - and introduction
of more local facilities and fewer out-of-town multiplexes? |
| <IT_Marco>
| Italian cities are full of this kind of cars. |
| Randall
Bowie | Any comments on the proposal on mandatory emissions
standards by Anders Wijkman? I expect to see some action soon. |
| David
Hammerstein | Clear objectives in energy and urban transport
should be adopted along the lines of the ProcuraPlus programme. |
| <IT_Luisa>
| More than a question, an opinion: I do agree that big vehicles
with disproportionate impact on the environment should pay much more for the extra
unnecessary pollution they produce. |
| ManagEnergy | A
big vehicle is appropriate if it is energy efficient and you are car sharing -
so penalising all use could discourage people from this. |
| <IT_Luisa>
| Circulation taxes should be proportional to KW, CO2
emitted and weight. |
| <NL_Peter>
| Should type of fuel not be a part of the taxes? |
| <IT_Luisa>
| .. and not related with energy, do not forget that they are
more DANGEROUS. |
| David Hammerstein | Intermodality
in transport sustainability and merchandise transport has been a total failure.
This area of energy use has skyrocketed. A very important issue for local authorities
is the establishment of more long term objectives in renewables beyond Kyoto.
Businesses also need to plan toward the future/ The UE also should aim high and
establish at least a 20% objective for 2020 as called upon by the EP. |
| <NLvaessen>
| Why should the energy market be liberalised. One should not
give citizens too much choice, simply because a citizen is not interested in being
a market analyst, but a citizen is simply interested in a fair price. |
| Diana
Barbu | How do you define fair? |
| <NLvaessen>
| Fair in not comparing prices all day long, or looking for
a new energy provider every year. I feel the liberation of the so called market
is suffocating for many people... |
| Randall
Bowie | To <NLvaessen> , I believe Anders W just answered
your question. Liberalisation can provide benefits but only if it is provided
with the right rules and regulations. [View the Internet
Broadcast to hear Mr Wijkman's comments] |
| ManagEnergy | In
the UK, I get telephone calls almost every day asking me to change my provider.
Sometimes if you say "Yes I might be interested" they take this as "Yes"
and change your provider. Most people have learnt to put their telephone down
straight away.. |
| Diana Barbu | I
agree with the idea that we should not look for an energy provider every year
but the Irish famine should have taught us a lesson: cheap prices are not always
in the best interest for the large population. Not in times when we face resources
scarcity. A monopoly if remains unchallenged may fail in reflecting reality sometimes. |
| <NLvaessen>
| No that is true, cheap is not always better, but currently
market liberalism seems to be less people friendly than anticipated. |
| <IT_Marco>
| It is quite true that the commission it is not so close to
the reality. |
| William Gillett | We
do our best ... but we are only human, and there are not very many of us ! |
| <IT_Marco>
| I know |
| <IT_Luisa>
| What do European institution do inside their buildings to
save energy? What about lights left on in empty offices? Do you have presence
detectors? |
| William Gillett | We
do certainly have energy savings control systems in our DG TREN offices. If my
Director finds our lights on after hours, then we are in trouble personally. The
systems are even more sophisticated in the new Berlaymont, where we are auditing
energy performance. |
| <IT_Marco>
| Mr Gillet, my idea is that we can do a lot with few and simply
rules. |
| <NL_Peter> |
I agree with <IT_Marco> that there is a need for transparent and clear rules. |
| William
Gillett | Businesses must make a profit. Our public sector role
is to find clever ways to regulate the market which permit profits to be made
and the other policy objectives to be achieved at the same time. |
| ManagEnergy | This
is difficult when it is a global market. |
| <IT_Marco>
| You are right. |
| <NL_Peter>
| I think profit and energy efficiency don't go well together. |
| <IT_Marco>
| Without profit nothing is possible, but profit and environment
are not so good friends. So I understand your difficulties Mr. Gillet. |
| William
Gillett | I think most policy makers also have in mind the need
to meet this balance / challenge. |
| Randall
Bowie | To Marco, but if we lack sustainability, the profit
will be pretty short term. |
| Diana Barbu | I
agree with Mr. Gillet. However, profits are being made to meet stakeholder expectations.
I wonder whether it is also important to be transparent and communicate to your
stakeholders what are the issues at stake and adjust expectations accordingly? |
| William
Gillett | Sometime we spend so much effort on being transparent
here in Brussels that our efficiency suffers! |
| ManagEnergy | Do
people who care about profit also care about the environment and energy efficiency? |
| Diana
Barbu | If their Board of Directors and shareholders would care,
I am sure the CEO would care as well. |
| Randall
Bowie | To Diana, if you could include stockholders among your
stakeholders, you might be able to make those who hold stock in an energy company
that corporate responsibility includes the environment. |
| Diana
Barbu | I think we are already doing so with projects which
have community ownership. |
| <NL_Maas>
| That is what funding is for isn't it? |
| ManagEnergy | Involving
the community and the "voter" is effective and so we come back to education...
We have to get the next generation to care. |
| Diana
Barbu | Also we may need to improve the minority shareholder
rights :-) |
| <NL_Peter> | Yes,
education seems to be the keyword. But who should educate who? |
| ManagEnergy | We
educate the children and they educate the current community and their children. |
| William
Gillett | My kids try to teach me many things. |
| Randall
Bowie | From my side, thanks to all of you. It has been real. |
| Diana
Barbu | I enjoyed it too. My warm thanks to the Managenergy
team and the participants. |
| Dana Dutianu | A
very interesting event ! Maybe my Internet "place" was more comfortable
than being in the Conference Room !. Thank you for all … and I am looking
for the next event. |
| William Gillett | Thank
you all very much. I will now leave you all to listen to the conclusions and the
final chat to managenergy. Goodbye. |
| <EC_ManagEnergy2> |
Thank you from Managenergy '2' as well and see you in the next chat! |
| ManagEnergy | Thank
you for joining the chat - we hope you found the conference interesting and useful.
We look forward to meeting you at our next event. Goodbye. |
