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European Conference on Local Energy Action The 5th Annual Event for Energy Management Agents in Europe The contribution of Local Actors to the EU Action Plan for Energy Efficiency 7-8 February 2006, Charlemagne Building, Brussels, Belgium and Live on the Internet |
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The Live Internet Chat was open for online participants during the whole event, manned by ManagEnergy service provider staff. This enabled online participants to discuss presentations amongst themselves, as well as submit advance questions for the debates and round table sessions. An Internet Chat with the Commission, including input into the Plenary discussion, took place on Tuesday 7 February at 11:45-13:00. The Chat was manned by:
The chat is accessed from the streaming page on the Internet Broadcast website during live events.
Note that many of the questions raised during the chat were transferred to the main hall and answered by the speakers. You can hear their answers by viewing the Video Recordings from this event on the Internet Broadcast website.
| Day 1: Tuesday 7 February 2006 | |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Welcome to the chat. You can use the chatroom to send advance questions for the Round Table on EU local Energy Agencies taking place at 11.50 today |
| Chamber_MK [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | Is there possibilities to have the Presentations of the speakers for print? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Yes, the speaker slides will be available for download after the event. [These can now be downloaded from the Internet Broadcast Website by clicking on the relevant speech] |
| Barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | I would have a question for the round table regarding the ESCOs and TPFs as discussed in the previous presentation. For instance, why banks do not want to finance this type of projects and what kind of banks are we talking about (e.g. big banks who ae usually foreign owned and therefore their investment plan reflects the view of their shareholder or local banks? Secondly, I would like to know what specific legislation the ESCOs feel needs to be changed or put in place? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Thank you for your question. We will pass it to the round table. Were you referring to the presentation by Andrea Preiss? |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | No, I was refering to the one of Mr. Konstantinou, previous to Andrea's. In his presentation he had a slide with the main problems with ESCOs and TPFs. |
| PL_Matysiak [ekoenergia cieszyn Association] | When will be next call for Energy Agencies? |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | The next call will be in May, and the deadline for the call will be in the Autumn, October I think. |
| Do you think local energy agencies are improving energy efficiency? | |
| PL_Matysiak [ekoenergia cieszyn Association] | Yes, my experience in area association tell me that energy agency will be better. |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | Is the green paper the right answer? Do you think energy efficiency is an option or an obligation? |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | I would like to reply to Ms. Veum's question. I believe we have the obligation to think different. However, it depends on the willingness of all energy stakeholders to go one extra mile to transform energy efficiency from an option to an obligation. |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | I agree with "Barbu (DE)", willingness is a prerequisite, if we really want to save energy, we need to change our lifestyle. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Thank you Ms. Veum. Changing life style is an important part of the puzzle but in my view it comes only once we have recognized, understood and acted upon the various economic, political and cultural challenges we face today. |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | Yes, we have to recognise, understand and act upon various challenges but at the same time we have to try to influence the big picture. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | This is true but events such as oil companies revising their reserves downwards several times in one year, political debacles with Russian Federation, China's thirst for fast growth do help us to see the big picture, I think. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | As far as vehicles are concerned energy efficiency research is often dedicated to the increase of the performances in terms of power and top speed of cars more than to the effective reduction of fuel consumption. Shouldn’t be taken actions to convince people and car makers that times have changed and that in most of the EU countries the top speed is limited between 120 to 140 km/h? |
| Chamber_MK [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | 2 Questions from steel company Maksteel - Duferco to Andrea Preis: How to satisfy the increasing need of energy in metal processing sector (specialy in the steel industry) What solutions are proposed from EU Member states and in EU generally? How the German steel industry participates in the EU Action plan of EE? |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | We believe that the German steel industry as other European energy intensive industries are contributing very actively to the action plan. |
| EC_DeWilt [Wilhelmus De Wilt] | Of course there is also the National Allocation Plan for emission trading which is up for review soon. There is also legislation for the energy intensive industry. Furthermore there is legislation in the field of cogeneration that is very relevant for energy intensive industry like refineries, paper mills, chemical industry etcetera. This may have a very big impact as illustrated in the Green Paper on Energy Efficiency. |
| Chamber_MK [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | Ms Veum can you please tell as more about the way these energy intensive consuming industries influence the action plan in sense of is their any committee in EU for such purposes? |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | They can send their input to the public consultation on the Green Paper on the internet (closed 31/3/2006). |
| manuel [Manuel, Valencia, Spain] | Hello Mr.Chairman, I am following the conference on line today in the Valencian office. Nice to join your chat on energy. |
| lightrailuk [Jim Harkins Light Rail(UK) Ltd] | We have done a feasibility study for Towyn & Colwyn Bay Rhyl North Wales for the introduction of low cost affordable tramway (A tourist/starter line using cascaded rolling stock). They have no funding for moving on to the next stage - is there any funding available to progress this project - Jim Harkins Light Rail(UK) Ltd - a not for profit company. |
| EC_Veum [Karina Veum, EC] | CONCERTO FP6 might help, could you send me your email and I will try to send you some information. |
| Chamber_mk1 [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | Question from MK company Metalec: Is there any exemple from EU country where there is financial stimulation in production of solar collectors? Can the consumers get a credit when buying solar collectors? |
| Test1 [A Conference Delegate on the ManagEnergy exhibition stand] | Germany has that kind of law. It is guaranteed fee for every kw put back into the power system, declining over 20 years. 5% annually. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Thank you for your question. I will put it forward to the Round Table. |
| zlatini | A questions from out of "the blue": where could one attain info on access to natural gas grid for domestic users? For EU15 that is. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] |
This is not something I know much about, but a google search for "European Gas Grid" came up with quite a few useful websites |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | I have a question for Mr. Coroyannakis. In the last couple of years it has been my experience that Malta and Cyprus are moving rather slow in puting in place more sustainable energy systems and adequate policies to support its implementation. Are there any new developments in these countries? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Thanks - this question will be put to the speakers. |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | I have a question to users of the chat room. Are there any initiatives to reduce energy utilization by increasing cross border backhauls? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Can anyone in the chat answer the question from <FR_Ojalvo>? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | <FR_Ojalvo> I can try to put it to the round table if you wish? |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Personally I have to admit I do not know what cross border backhaul means. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | <FR_Ojalvo> - Can you explain what cross border backhaul means? |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | Cross border means between countries (i.e. France - Belgium), backhaul means a return trip. Usually these return trips are empty and pollute for no reason. I work for a company that has full capability of designing technolgy (such as a portal) to increase collaboration to reduce that phenomenon. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Thank you for explaining. |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | I was wondering whether such initiative already exists, since policy is a necessary factor to materialize this. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Thank you for clarifications Ojalvo. So if I understand correctly, you are referring to air traffic? |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | No, I am actually referring to trucks (road transportation). Truck goes from Mechelen (BE) to Paris (FR) but the Belgian company does not have a sales network that encompasses France. So the Truck will return empty (we call this dead miles). |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Ok, I understand. So maybe sharing road transport among various companies would make sense in your view? This way the trucks could carry one commodity in one direction and other on the way back. Or even better, create a truck pool where load is managed centralised? |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | Correct. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | I think it is indeed a very good ideea. |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | A sourcing consortium could solve the problem with the right technology and policy making. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | What policy do you feel you are missing to organise such truck pool? |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | Europewide (including Eastern EU and Turkey/Russia) low tax breaks for sourcing transportation through such a portal. |
| Policy that creates an incentive for large companies to adhere, rather than do this on their own. | |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Well, I believe that one could use simply market rules. By improving the time of use, maybe transport can become cheaper for companies joining the pool while the number of trucks on the roads may not increase. If you use bio fuels, tax incentives could be indeed very useful. |
| FR_Ojalvo [France] | The market rules themselves do indeed support such pooling action. However large companies have enough leverage (annual spend in EU wide transportation) to do this on their own. The latter is by the way a market we are a leader in (sourcing for such companies). |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | In a competitive environment I can imagine companies wanting to cut costs wherever they can and cutting transport costs, in my view, is better than laying off people. |
| Chamber_mk1 [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | Macedonia does not have any regional or local energy agency and the need for such body is increasing do you think that soon this county will be eligible to get financial and know how help from EU funds in order to establish this body or this is mainly governemnts issue? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Energy agencies are usually funded by their local or regional government with initial funding available from the European Commission from the Intelligent Energy - Europe programme. |
| As far as I know, Macedonia is not eligible for funds from the IEE programme. | |
| Chamber_mk1 [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] | Yes that's true...now maybe it is too much to ask but what are the crietrieas to become eligible? |
| Chamber_mk1 [Economic Chamber of Macedonia] for Company_Metalec | Is there any assocation that would participate with our company in establishement of Wind park in Macedonia? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | You could try submitting a partner search request on the managenergy website: http://www.managenergy.net/partners.html |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Please let me know whether I can hear the answers to questions live, in the language of the speakers, without the filter of translation. I have no option but to hear the translation not the voice ie francais or italian of the speaker? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | The interpretation broadcast in the room is then streamed to the web. There is not a single recording of the speaker in the room, hence this is not streamed to the web. The only way to hear what is in the room is to be in the room, or swap languages as the language of the speaker changes. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Hearing Mr Ballestrero I wonder whether politicians are to be considered as allied in the Energy saving campaign or a sleeping partner only? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Do you think that politicians should be actively involved? |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | How can we succeed without them? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | This is true. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | "Any news or initiative that do not appear in the television simply do not exist ". Can you comment on this? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Do you believe this is true? |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | helas yes... |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | From ManagEnergy's point of view, this is not entirely true. We have 20000 people visiting the ManagEnergy website each week [this rose to more than 35000 in March 2006 following this conference]. Yet, ManagEnergy is not on TV. Many people look at the internet rather than watch the news or read the paper... |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | With respect to how to promote ee education, I came across an interesting example in Uk. One farmer decided to go for a small wind farm on his land and he initiated the project. Shares in the wind park are sold with priority to the people living 50 miles around the project location. The wind mills are used for educational purposes and money are set aside for an energy efficiency fund which, if I understand correctly, funds energy audits for the citizens to improve their energy use. This is one of the projects managed by energy4all and, in my opinion, is an excellent example how renewable energy and energy efficiency go together. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Yes - there are a few of these types of projects in the UK. Yet articles in National papers are written against wind mills - because they are so bad for the environment. It is a matter of perception. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | No, in my view it is also a matter of educating the media. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | It is often the environmental pressure groups who are against wind power. Many do not see wind turbines as environmentally friendly. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Then maybe having the farmer on TV explaining why he went for wind would be a good thing. In addition, the project allows him to better compete on the organic farming markets. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | I agree with Barbu! |
| JuniorExpert [Bojidar Ivanov i rabotia v Sofiiska Energiina Agencia - SOFENA] | Dear colleagues, what do you think about the use of nuclear energy. Do you think it is inevitable? |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | unlike energy efficiency, nuclear energy in my view is an option and not necessarily an obligation; but it is an option that cannot be overlooked given the current uncertainty (political, reserves, etc) so maintaining a certain capacity is, I believe inevitable. |
| Day 2: Wednesday 8 February 2006 | |
| BE_MAIO [Patrick Maio, Hinicio, Belgium] | How can we put a question to the speakers? |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | If you enter your question here we will try to put it to the speakers during the Q&A Session. |
| BE_MAIO [Patrick Maio, Hinicio, Belgium] | Question 1 to Mr. Soldner: How should a heavy duty vehicle manufacturer react to the new EC directive which you described and what sort of strategic decision should it take in terms of clean propulsion technologies: a) invest in transitional technologies that meet the EEV standard at a minimal cost, b) invest in breakthrough technologies such as fuel cells which can meet future clean technology standards but at a higher upfront costs, c) no decision: business as usual. |
| Question 2 to Mr. Soldner: Would the Commission be able to stimulate collective initiatives to bring fleet managers of public authorities together in buyer’s pool schemes to generate necessary volume effects necessary to offset upfront costs for innovative clean technologies? Thank you. | |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Thank you for your questions. Questions already submitted are about to be asked. |
| <BE_maio> - I hope you are hearing the reply to your question? | |
| BE_MAIO [Patrick Maio, Hinicio, Belgium] | Excellent, thank you very much. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | The two reports on education described by Marcello Antinucci can be found at: http://www.managenergy.net/products/R721.htm for "ManagEnergy Reflection Document on a EU-wide Co-operation of Local Actors on Sustainable Energy Education" |
| and http://www.managenergy.net/products/R1034.htm for Sector Report on Education & Training: Study of outputs, performance and future perspectives of SAVE energy agencies, ECUBA, 2005 | |
| In addition there is a new brochure (currently being printed) which can be downloaded at: http://www.managenergy.net/products/R1245.htm - "Education on Energy - Teaching tomorrow's energy consumer. Currently this is in 8 languages, but a further 11 languages are expected soon [it is now online in 19 languages along with details of how to order printed copies]. | |
| See the Education Thematic page http://www.managenergy.net/education.html for further information | |
| You can view the Good Practice for the speaker from AER - Agència Energètica de La Ribera at: http://www.managenergy.net/products/R1205.htm | |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Teaching to children, tomorrow’s consumers, has been considered the possibility to mention the word “DECROISSANCE” (I am not sure of the equivalent English term) and not only of sustainable growth ? I feel that many non-strategic activities would have to be downsized in the future to recover an acceptable level of efficiency. Adults of the future should be smoothly prepared to the optimum. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Sorry - I don't know what “DECROISSANCE” means? |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | The opposite of growth. |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | Okay - I understand. It is about using less energy and consuming less, using fewer resources. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Yes the term applies to economy first. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Hi, I just joined the chat room and saw the discussion between Ciccarelli and K. Hall. I too have a problem with growth. Two years ago I was writing in my PhD thesis that using GDP growth figures as a policy tool cam be missleading. This is because GDP reflects monetary transactions but says nothing about the damage we do to natural capital and the social fabric as a result of our thirst for rapid growth. Even worse, a country can grossly overproduce its natural resources and look like it did a great job in promoting growth |
| ME_KEHall [Katy Hall, ManagEnergy] | This is another problem relating to changing people's fundamental values and outlook. I don't think these will change overnight. Education will help, but ultimately a large number of people will spend as much money as they can - and in doing so will use up unnecessary amounts of energy. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | This change indeed can not happen overnight but if all these challenges of growth are well explained, change may happen faster than otherwise. For instance, I was reading the other day a report about global energy markets and somewhere, at the bottom of the page, in a footnote, it was mentioned that in China, some provinces report higher GDP figures than it is probably the case in reality because resources are allocated in relation to the overall performance. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | "Our way of life is not negotiable" are you ready to negotiate? |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | It is not the way of life that should become negotiable but rather the way to obtain that way of life. |
| Ronald [Rex] Bailey, EC | The problem is that a small minority of the population - especially of rapidly industrialising countries - that can accept this, and governments - including EU ones - have to recognise this. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | You can still have a good quality life and be more careful with what you consume; and yes, I am applying all these to my own life; I cycle all the time, I use mainly local light with energy efficient bulbs, I manage to have only two yellow bags of garbage in two weeks between two persons (way below what is the statistical weight here in Germany), I turn off the heat in all the rooms I do not use, etc. And I do not watch commercials :-) |
| Ronald [Rex] Bailey, EC | That's absolutely great and you are to be congratulated - a lot of us do some of these things in everyday life as far as possible. Many people are also put off by thinking 'well, no one else makes the effort so why should I' which of course is completely wrong. But individualism is the strongest reflex. The problem is more than one of communications and persuasion than of technology, but we are fighting against some of the most fundamental reflexes of - as you say 'consumerist' society. Also in the Commission we are trying to identify, with the local actors who have the greatest influence in this field, the most effective and persuasive ways of effecting this behaviour change. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | Well there are few things available. Many years ago I made a presentation of a book written by Lovins, the now famous Factor 4. Then very few people were excited about the subject. Now, I am about to finish another book called Natural Capitalism written by Paul Hawken and Lovins. In this book you can find numerous examples on how industrial processes can be improved to the point where you can use only a minimum fraction of what we used to. |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Even if we will succeed in saving 30% of our energy bill (it is possible but how many years it will take ?) we will be 50 % over the average of the developing countries. So will our sons be ready to “decrease”? This is the challenge for the next generation! |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | One way I see it done in Germany, is that young people have the chance to go for an internship in a developing country for a period of time ranging from few months to one year. One of the students that worked for the reasearch group I was working with came quite changed after such a trip in India. In some new member states and Romanian (my country), we also have programs where children go and spend some time with families in foreign countries and other children are coming in our families. |
| This exchange at an early age can open up children's minds and such programs, in my view, should be encouraged. | |
| IT_Ciccarelli [Giovanni Ciccarelli, CIS Ecologia, Italy] | Right, this is the approach towards children I was talking about in the morning session. |
| barbu (DE) [Anca-Diana Barbu from Germany] | There is also in Mexico a luxury hotel which applies many principles for a sustainable business but one thing that they do, they allow their workers to participate one day per week in voluntary programs to help their communities; In a book I just finished written by Jack Welch and called "Winning", I learned that GE has a similar program in place. This could also be a good reality check. In addition, I guess it is a good thing for global companies to get engaged locally. Maybe the time will come when this can be part of the effort to gain competitive advantage. |